tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32437338341330039.post5896513128423236938..comments2023-12-28T03:50:16.430-06:00Comments on God for Us!: T.F. Torrance: The Vicarious Humanity of Jesus Christ, pt. 10Martin M. Davis, Ph.D.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00060028955166973741noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32437338341330039.post-79225807961217348272012-01-09T10:54:52.451-06:002012-01-09T10:54:52.451-06:00Should we baptize everyone? It seems to be fairly ...Should we baptize everyone? It seems to be fairly easy to draw that implication from Torrance's reasoning...Daniel Isadorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17075546081448489811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32437338341330039.post-40312558570913164182011-11-15T03:25:13.778-06:002011-11-15T03:25:13.778-06:00Thanks for this post! Very good and very stimulati...Thanks for this post! Very good and very stimulating. I'm looking forward to the part which deals with Torrance on the Lord's Supper...Arjen Terlouwhttp://qualitativetheology.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32437338341330039.post-2606913779611259062011-11-03T23:01:36.050-05:002011-11-03T23:01:36.050-05:00Very good, thank you!Very good, thank you!Cody Leenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32437338341330039.post-46089381686124774902011-11-03T21:07:01.086-05:002011-11-03T21:07:01.086-05:00Hey Cody,
I think I understand where you are comi...Hey Cody,<br /><br />I think I understand where you are coming from. First, I am using the term “baptismal regeneration’ to refer to any doctrine that regards the rite of baptism as salvific in and of itself, so that without it we are lost. This is exactly what Torrance wants to guard against. The medieval Latin church separated the rite from its underlying reality in the vicarious humanity of Jesus Christ and attributed saving grace to the ritual, apart from Jesus. This is what we are arguing against.<br /><br />If I read you correctly you are using the term “baptismal generation,” not in a salvific sense but in an experiential sense; that is, through baptism we “experience” the salvation that is already ours in Jesus Christ. I think you are very close to the Torrance tradition here. For Torrance, baptism adds nothing new to the finished work of Jesus; however, there is a “realisation” or “actualisation” of that finished work.<br /><br />I participated in a great conversation two days ago on this very subject and got much of the following from my homey, Rev Cary Stockett. Even with infant baptism, there is a “deepening” (Trevor Hart’s word, I think) of the relationship between the baptisand and Jesus Christ. With infants, this deepening is of course pre-verbal, non-cognitive, etc. but that makes it no less real and meaningful. As developmental psychologists teach us, pre-cognitive experiences can have a significant impact on later life. Thus the rite itself “nourishes” (my word) our relationship with Jesus Christ (also true of Eucharist), even in infancy, and hence is a rite greatly to be desired, not to mention that Jesus commands it.<br /><br />Be careful of the term baptismal regeneration. It is a loaded term. <br /><br />Thanks for contributing to the conversation, bro!Martin M Davishttp://www.martinmdavis.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32437338341330039.post-49277164630305901822011-10-31T23:04:34.270-05:002011-10-31T23:04:34.270-05:00Bravo! This was an awesome post, and I would say a...Bravo! This was an awesome post, and I would say a much needed one to clarify what all Torance has said on baptism. This is one of the things that I struggled with for a while when I began reading Torrance for various reasons. I have come to these same conclusions! This is the way I see it as well, awesome article!<br /><br />One thing though. When you said," Torrance’s understanding of baptism precludes any notion of “baptismal regeneration.”" I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. Yes in an objective sense, because there is only One regeneration that Christ accomplished in our humanity that by the Spirit we share in, but this sharing is a 'subjective regeneration' I would say. This is where by the Spirit we experience personaly the effects of what Christ has done, and it is sealed to us. Though all these things are true about us before we were even born, our participation is integral to recieving our salvation. The early fathers of the church all spoke of some sort of baptismal regeneration, and I think it can be looked at in this subjective aspect, our participation. Keeping the focus on the already accomplished fact and yet still being able to give credence to our experience. It's where the already breaks into the not yet. That's what I would say, what do you think?Cody Leenoreply@blogger.com